Submission? But the burden falls on Black women!
In Episode 005 of the Naked Proverbs podcast, Rich and Nik Scott discuss what it means for wives to submit to their husbands.
Nik: Welcome to the Naked Proverbs podcast where we unclothe the truth about Black love, family and marriage. My name is Nik Scott, one of your hosts, and I'm here with my husband…
Rich: What's going on? It's your boy Rich. And today, we're going to talk about submission.
Nik: Before we get started we have to always let the listeners know that we are not therapists or counselors, at least not licensed therapists as counselors because we know that men and women and the construct of marriage, we were very many hats and some of those hats can be therapists and counselors, but we're not licensed.
We're not professionals. We don't get paid to give you all the advice and all the good, good you’re about to get in this here episode.
Rich: So, if you haven't already, make sure you subscribe the Naked Proverbs on whatever platform you listen to podcasts on. And if you like what you hear, show us your love and support by becoming a patron.
You can get all the details on our website at www.patreon.com/nakedproverbs
Nik: You did good, baby.
Rich: I was reading.
Nik: So, first and foremost, before we jump into this topic, because it's heavy, it's been all over the news and we'll get into that in a second but thank you to our listeners. Last week's episode is currently our most listened to episode. This is episode five if you're just now jumping on the Naked Proverbs bandwagon, and this week I saw that we had some listeners tuning in from the East coast.
Yes. So, represent Maryland and Washington, D C we see ya.
Rich: I got a family of both of them cities. Is that y'all, family?
Nik: Today's topic is all about submission and I just said a couple of seconds ago that it's been a hot topic, especially in the Black community because of what Fantasia said on the Breakfast Club. And to some of y'all, this might be old news, but for some of y'all, this might be new news because you've never even heard it before. So, I was going to play exactly the whole conversation that Fantasia said on the Breakfast Club, but I don't want to get in trouble with the FTC and I don't need nobody coming after my coins.
We don't need none of that. So, instead I just transcribed it. And what I'll do is I will place the full interview, and please understand y'all that it's literally like two or three minutes of a 30-minute interview, but I'll place the full interview on our Facebook page.
So, anybody who cares to hear Fantasia say it out of her own mouth, you'll have that option.
So, these are Fantasia's words.
Rich: Can you do it in her voice?
Nik: Do you want me to do it like that?
So, these are her words. These are not my words. This is what she said on the Breakfast Club. And this is what sparked so much controversy on Twitter and everywhere else in the internet streets.
“We need more men to stand up and lead the way. Most women are trying to be the leader. That's why you can't find a man.
You can't be the King in the house, fall back and be the Queen and let your man lead the way. It's a generational curse and how society has placed our men and our women have to stand up and be the mother and the father and the provider, so then you're so bad you can't be told nothing. And when the right man comes, you lose them because you're trying to be the man.
It's a societal thing, and they do that on purpose. I'm the neck. My man's the head. He can't move without me. At the end of the day, it all works together. You have to learn how to submit the King needs his Queen.
Those were the words of Fantasia.
Rich: and you know what? Honestly, we can go ahead and stop this podcast because nothing else needs to be said.
Rich: I was just playing. Y'all need to hear my point of view because I'm a man, and while my wife might be the neck, I'm the head.
Nik: I totally agree with what Fantasia said. I especially agree about the part that it's a generational curse and it's purposefully placed on our community, specifically by society.
This kind of piggybacks off of what we talked about last week when I talked about how in this country there has been a conscious effort to erase the Black man from our families, and I think that this is just another way that society has done that. I can't argue with Fantasia on this one and anyone, any woman who has a problem with that.
Honestly, they probably ain't got no man.
Rich: Well, I would say any woman that has a problem with this, unfortunately, it's probably part of the problem because the one thing I would say I probably don't agree with with Fantasia is I don't think it's a generational curse. I do agree that it's something that's been planned out by the powers that be, especially when we talk about our community, the Black community, because you can't fault women for stepping into the gap.
Which is what has had to happen because our men have been killed, our men are imprisoned, our men are being taken out of the families. Any kind of way that can happen, it seems. So, to me it's like, you know, is that really a generational curse or is that just a plan thing? It's kind of like how people talk about diabetes as a generational curse.
It's not a generational curse. You just choose, eat really bad food, not exercise. So that kind of is the reason you have diabetes sometimes. Not always, but I think this is. That same, same type of situation. This isn't necessarily a generational curse, but it's definitely something that we as a community need to look at, talk about, and come up with solutions to resolve so we can continue to move forward and be great.
Nik: We do have to work together as a community, but I do feel like it's a generational curse because the burden does fall on us as Black women. And the thing is, is that everybody knows I don't care who you are, I don't care what race you are, I don't care how old you are. Everybody knows that Black women can do everything because we've had to do everything, and a lot of times, let's be clear, we'll end up with men who expect us to do everything, who expect this to provide, who expect this to make decisions, who expect this to do these things. So, then this is kind of going against what Fantasia said. How is a woman who's used to doing everything by herself because she's had to for generations, right? Like I watched my mama do it.
My mama watched her mama do it. Her mama watched her mom and do it. So, to me, it is a generational curse. So how are we supposed to then get with a man and just all of a sudden just be like, okay…
Rich: Well I think that you also have to look, if everybody's mama did it and everybody's mama is not just having daughters, they're having sons as well.
So, they are raising men that believe that is the norm, that, oh, you know, my wife's supposed to get out there and get a job and work hard and pay the bills and do all these things because that's what they've seen. You know we've talked about this before. People, men, look for women that are similar a lot of times to the women that they've had in their lives, mostly their mom.
And so, if you've had a strong mom, because you know I'm not going to sit here and knock Black women that have stood in the gap. Uh, because it's not easy. You know? And I can say that because I'm a man and I know how hard it is to be a man in America. So, I can only imagine how much harder it is for those women that are standing in the gap.
But reality is, is that there is a point where you have to fall back. If you want a man to be a man, you have to fall back and allow him to be a man. And then you can't be upset that you are raising boys to become men by women. And this is controversial that we can have on another topic, but I don't believe a woman can raise a boy to be a man.
They can raise him to have some really great qualities and to be very productive and do a lot of great things. But any man that I've ever known that was raised by a single mother had some male influence. And. It's important to understand that there are some things that a woman just can't teach a man, and I'm not talking about standing up and pissing.
There are some things you just can't teach your son no matter who you are. So, to me, it goes back to if you have women that are raising men, and then those men go out into society, they may be missing something. Whether anybody wants to admit to that or not, because admitting to that to some would mean I failed raising my son, and that's not what that really means though. What it means is, is that you raised a son without the complete picture because you didn't have that male figure that was there to add to his value.
Nik: I can speak from my own experience being a very independent, goal oriented, go getter kind of woman.
I have a very strong personality. Everything about my presence except for my stature is big. So, I have a presence. When I walk in a room, I have a presence. Even in the midst of other men. I have a presence, and when we got married, we were very young. I did not grow up without a father. I didn't grow up with a single mother.
I grew up with both of my parents being involved in my life, and I come from a family. I've said it before in a previous episode of very strong women. So, I get married to you, and again, I have to let the listeners know that I didn't come from that religious background and knowing all of the things that the Bible says about submission.
I came in marrying this man who quite honestly, I felt like we were equals, right? We were equals and there was no, I'm the head of the house. We were both the heads of the house and there were conversations and arguments that we used to have like big, loud arguments. I'm very loud. My husband is not. Um, it's a very, it's a huge disruption to his entire being when you're hollering and screaming.
Rich: I have PTSD.
Nik: You didn't have it when we got married in your 20s.
Rich: You might've gave it to me early.
Nik: No, but no, I probably did because you probably had never experienced anything like that, but I was so adamant about standing my ground.
Like I remember us having an argument, and I will say this to anybody, I didn't think we were going to make it six months, because I remember this argument that we had about hanging pictures on the wall. I don't know if you remember this.
Nik: It was in family housing and we had blown up all these pictures of our families and I had them all framed, and we went it to hang them around our living room.
And we got into this huge argument about the order that the pictures were going to go in, like every little thing that I was doing you were challenging, and I felt challenged about it and I wasn't going back down. Anybody who knows me, I'm not going to back down, especially if I know or believe that I'm right and I knew that I believed that I was right and I wasn't about to have this man telling me what to do because I used to say it all the time.
You ain't my daddy.
Rich: You did used to say it a lot.
Nik: You ain't my daddy. And that's the way that I used to treat you. But I had to learn how to submit to the authority of my household. And it wasn't about me changing you. It wasn't about me. Why is he talking to me like that? What? How come I can't hang the pictures the way that I want to hang the pictures?
It wasn't about anything that you were doing. It was about me and who I was as a woman. And in that submission I had to learn. As a Black woman who can hold her own, because let's be clear, I'm a movement by myself, but I'm a force when we're together and I had to realize that, yes, I can hold my own in this, but if I wanted this man who loved me, loved my dirty draws, y'all would probably still to this day drink my bath water.
Rich: That’s a bit much.
Nik: If I wanted him to remain in my life and to be the covering that I needed in a husband. I had to not sacrifice who I was as a person because that's what made you fall in love with me. But learn how to fall back, like Fantasia said, and be the Queen.
Be the Queen.
Rich: I guess my question is, because you know, as you spoke earlier and said, you know, you didn't grow up in a religious background. I did. So, my whole concept and understanding of submission came from a biblical standpoint. I didn't know if there could be submission in any other type of way until I've grown over the years and I can now look at it differently.
But for me, submission was strictly a thing that women were supposed to do to men, they were supposed to submit to men because men were born men. And so, for me, it's like, you know, is submission, just a religious concept? And when we're talking about marriage, you know, how does that even factor in?
Nik: I don't believe the word submission is a bad word, except when we're talking about it in the construct of marriage, which is so funny to me because the whole idea of submission in marriage does come from religious contexts, um, the Bible being one of those, that's the text that you and I are most familiar with, but it has such a negative vibe to it. If the Bible is supposed to be this great thing and the roadmap for life, why is it that even people who are in the church have a problem? Even women who are in the church have a problem with submission?
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Rich: So, really when you're talking about submission and you think about it from a religious concept, I would say that submission is always geared towards women. It's always talking about wives being submissive to your husbands. Um, it's women be in your place kind of thing. Even when you Google the statement submission in a marriage.
Everything is talking about the biblical meaning of submission in a marriage submission of wives to husbands. Submission is not desiring God. What biblical submission in marriage really means. So, it's like even when you think of the word submission, even when Google thinks of the word submission, it's from a biblical standpoint.
Nik: Yeah. And I think that causes a real point of concern and it should cause a real point of concern for people because. The word submission in itself isn't bad, but when we start talking about submission in the construct of marriage and in the institution of marriage, that's when it becomes a bad word.
The truth is, is we as women, we submit all day long every day, and we never have a problem with it. We submit to other people, but when it comes to our husbands, because of this biblical construct. We have a problem with it.
Rich: And I think that kind of leads us to that reality of submission is not a one-way thing.
Submission is not something just wives should do in a marriage or just women should do in the world, but submission is something that husbands need to realize is something that needs to do as well in their marriage.
Nik: For us, for example, um, we work together, we run businesses together, we do this podcast together, and there are some things that you take the lead on, and there are some things that I take the lead on.
And submission definitely goes both ways. And in some ways I submit to you and vice versa. It's not, you're the ruler, the head of the household, all mighty King. And I bow down. And I don't know much about chess. But what I do know about chess is that the Queen, and you can correct me cause you know, the Queen is more quote unquote, powerful than the King.
Rich: Exactly. You know, the, the Queen on a chess board, uh, is the one piece that can pretty much do anything she wants to do and is the most powerful piece on the chess board. But ultimately the game is over if the King has checkmated. So, you have to understand that the two have to work together. You're trying to protect your King in a game of chess.
Uh, and in reality in life, you know, I'm protecting my Queen. I am doing everything I can to make sure that she can do everything she wants to do. Everything that you want to do. I as your King am trying to push you forward and see your success. Uh, so for me, you know, I look at even the word submission and I think what if we used a different word that I think is very similar to submission and that's respect. So, if a husband and a wife can respect one another in a marriage, then it's easy to submit. It's easy to, uh, know when to lead and when to follow.
Nik: And to the chess analogy that was really great.
I didn't know that about the game. Wives. Black women because we are good and you know, we're the ones that everybody wants to say we're difficult to work with. We are strong communicators. We put it all on her. She can handle it, and all of those things might be true except for being difficult to work with.
I think that people who say that just don't know how to work or communicate with Black women, but in in the chess analogy, as long as we're allowing the King to do his job, we are able to do what we're called to do.
Rich: And I think it's important because I don't want to create this picture of there should be no head of the household.
You know, we kind of spoke about that in the beginning, that there are lanes that we all need to stay in, in a marriage. Uh, that doesn't mean that we can't cross over, that we can't ride together. We can't ride share. But at the end of the day. No two people can drive a vehicle, no two people can lead. It does take one person that takes the lead in a family, and in our situation, it is me as the husband, but I don't think that that always works in every situation.
We realized when I was deployed to Iraq that you are actually better at dealing with the finances than I was. So, you kind of took the lead on that and you ended up taking over paying bills and taking care of the financial parts of our household because. We found that you were better at that, and I think even in a marriage, there are times where you're going to find out that your spouse is stronger in one area or another, and that may not be the area that need to be submissive in.
That may be an area that me as a man, I need to step back and be submissive in
Nik: Even so far as taking it outside of the marriage. Right, and in the world, there is a certain order and hierarchy to every single thing we do in life. I don't think that women have a problem submitting to their bosses, whether they're male or female.
I don't believe that a female students have an issue with submitting to their teachers in the classroom, whether they're male or female. And so, if we can just take that idea. I like what you said about respect. If we can just take the idea about respect and what really comes to mind is the golden rule.
If you treat your spouse, your husband, the way that you want to be treated. Then how is he going to treat you? It’s not about getting stepped over and walked on?
Rich: And I think that each of those examples you gave, you could switch it and flip it and say, men don't have a problem when their boss is a woman.
They are still submissive and know their role. If a young man is going to college or he's a student and the teacher is a woman, they don't have a problem with that. And it's crazy to me because you kind of alluded to this earlier, that it only seems to be an issue when we're talking about marriage, it's not an issue in society. When we're talking about work, when we're talking about education, when we're talking about going to the park or whatever the situation is that we find ourselves, submission is never an issue until we're talking about marriage. If a man is pulled over by a police officer and she is a woman, and she's in a position of power and they need to be submissive. Yes ma'am. No, ma'am. Following her, her commands, her directions, it's not an issue. It's not going to make national news. No one's going to care because that's just what that man's going to do. But if that same situation were in a marriage and his wife was saying, hey, you know what? I need you to follow me on this. It's going to be national news. It’s going to be an issue like, oh my God, there was a man that was submissive to his wife today and did whatever was needed to be done. And I think that's where that issue for me because I've learned over the years that there are times that I need to be out front.
But there are also times when you need to be out front and I need to be right there either by your side or behind you pushing you one of the two. And you know, I just think that's something that is, like you said earlier, it's really interesting when you stop and actually think about that.
Nik: At the end of the day in a marriage, somebody has to be the leader.
They have to be the leader and every marriage is different. In our marriage you are the head of the household. You are the King of this house and I have no qualms about treating you as such. I had to grow to that space. But it's a space that I'm comfortable in. It's a space that I feel like I was designed for.
I think a lot of times the bigger issue in our community is that we just simply don't know how to be wives. Because we have been pushed into these roles so often and for so long we don't know what it's like to really allow a man to be a man. When a lot of times our only interactions with men have been with absentee or abusive fathers, or even our sons becoming men. And when we get into a marriage it's a very uncomfortable thing for us. Just going back to talking about slavery again, it's by design. Our families have been ripped apart. We're not supposed to be comfortable in that role. So, if wives. Black wives. If you are open minded enough to grow into that space of submission into that space of respect and to that space of allowing your husband to take the lead and supporting him and respecting him, I'm telling you now it will be a beautiful, beautiful thing.
Rich: And husbands, you have to understand that you have to be in alignment.
You have to know what it means to lead. My father used to tell me, if you have to stand up and say you're the man of the house, you're not the man of your house. So, if you're in a position where you constantly have to remind your wife, your children, to people, the dog, whoever, that you're the man of the house, understand, you're probably not the man of the house.
And what I mean by that is being the man of the house is more than just. I have a job and I pay the bills. And I would never tell any woman that you need to be submissive to your husband, to the point that he's leading you astray. You know that he's making bad decisions, and you're like, well, I'm just supposed to be in alignment, so I'm just gonna, you know, let him lead. Don't be an idiot.
You know? So, men understand that, that because our women have had to stand in the gap for so long that they do have high expectations. And I would honestly say, I don't think they're high enough. We as men have to fill that gap. And when we're standing in that gap, we have to do it with knowledge, integrity, a wisdom with leadership that you know, you can't expect people to follow you just because.
You really can't. I don't care if you're the man of the house or not. I don't care if you know you're the head or not. Nobody's gonna follow a bad leader. So, you have to lead from the front and you have to lead by example. It starts with you. It starts with us as the men of our households.
Nik: Thank you so much for tuning into this week's episode. We want you to have a truly happy marriage. We want you to continue to thrive in your marriages. And indulge in your spouses on a regular basis. Don't forget to subscribe to Naked Proverbs on whatever podcasting platform you listen to your podcasts on and share this episode with a friend. Let's continue the conversation down in the comment section and we'll talk to y'all next week.